Problem with Master Tool with Tool Measurements

[orbscan]

I have a problem with Master Tool with Auto Tool Measurements.

The probe don't stop when touch the other probe and I must to stop with E-Stop.

The probes are fully functional.

Please look pictures in attachments
Thank you
Carlo

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
First, my apologies for the timing of this post. I remember seeing this question and wrote a response – I’m sure I did. Yet, when I looked, it is not on the board.
So I am responding to this one again – and I’ll try not to let this happen again.

The first information I need is to know how the two probes are interfaced to the CNC control. With MSM there are two choices:
1) Single signal
The two probes are connected together with external electronics so that pushing EITHER probe 1 OR probe 2 will result in a probe trigger electronic signal. That signal is then wired into a single pin that is set up as the mach probe input pin.

2) Two Signal
The two probes are connected two two different pins of a breakout board and the MSM “two signal” interface feature is used to run them.

Please let me know what interface approach is being used.

I have a problem with Master Tool with Auto Tool Measurements.

The probe don't stop when touch the other probe and I must to stop with E-Stop.

The probes are fully functional.

Please tell me what tests you have preformed that leads you to make this claim.
If you used the Sinle signal interface, then the following tests should be true:

I’ll call the upper probe in your picture “probe 1” and the upside down probe in the picture being used as a touch plate “probe 2”.

With the machine at rest (we don’t need a probe movement for this basic test), look at the MSM probe LED. is it off (grey)?

Push on probe 1, does the MSM Probe led come on?
Does the LED go off when you release pressure from the probe?

Does the same thing happen for probe 2?

If this basic test is not passing, then the probes are either not interfaced to the machine correctly from an electrical standpoint and/or there is a ports & pins level configuration problem that we need to find and fix.

If you used the MSM two signal approach, the above test should work for the probe connected to the mach probe signal. The probe connected to the mach “timing” input can on be tested in this manner. However, you can swap the connections between the two probes and test probe 2 using the mach probe pin.

Please look pictures in attachments
Thank you
Carlo

I so see a couple of indications of MSM configuration issues from the screen shots. Let’s get the basic low level configuration issues sorted out (see above) before we go into those.

Dave

[orbscan]

Thank you for the answer Dave.

The two probes are interfaced to the CNC control with single signal.
Look the attachment.

The two probes work fine. Look this movie.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36638541/sonde.3gp

For the vision use vlc. This is the link for download
http://get.videolan.org/vlc/2.1.3/win32 ... -win32.exe

Best regards.
Carlo

[DaveCVI]

OK, that's good. The video shows that the basic requirement is being met, which is: each probe must be able to independently trigger the probe signal to mach .

Next I want to check that MSM is set up for single signal interfacing. Please look in ports & Pins and verify that the "timing" signal is not enabled.
(if the timing signal is enabled, MSM will try to use two signal interfacing and that would mess up this hardware configuration).

Assuming the timing signal is OK, I want to verify the operation of probe 1. When you said they all work perfectly does that literally mean that probe 1 is able to do all the steps/tests given in section 8.11 of the user manual?

If that all works then we can be pretty confident that the various probing parameters are set appropriately.
FYI - all movements using the probe use the probing parameter settings. What surprises some is that measuring a tool by "probing" the tool to a touch plate is also a probing movement - and thus it also uses the probing parameters.

Next I would like to know two more things:
What tool # have you set to be the probe tool?
What tool number have you set to be the master tool?

Once I have this info, we will start to work thru the MSM steps & setting for calibrating the TCP TP etc.

Dave

[orbscan]

mmm...

timing is enabled...

I use timing with the QRD1114 for to count the revolutions of the spindle... (see attachments)
QRD1114 worked with 2.0.7 version but (I have seen now) don't work with 2.0.12 version...

What do I do? Downgrade?

The probes are able to do all the step/tests given in section 8.11 of the user manual.

Probe tool always number 250
master tool I have tried 100 e 250

Thank you
Carlo

[DaveCVI]

mmm...

timing is enabled...

I use timing with the QRD1114 for to count the revolutions of the spindle... (see attachments)
QRD1114 worked with 2.0.7 version but (I have seen now) don't work with 2.0.12 version...

What do I do? Downgrade?

Ah, OK, now I think we have found the problem. Time for me to do some explaining....

To the best of my knowledge, in the 3.43.xx series of Mach the timing input in Mach is no longer used. Instead the Index signal is supposed to be used for "timing inputs".

Contrary to what I was told, the fact that you have an input device hooked to the deprecated timing input and mach is actually using it for index pulse counting should not really surprise me... after all this is Mach (where years of changes have been piled up on top of each other and there is no regression test set for Mach ).

I was told by Artsoft that the timing signal was no longer used, in fact it is they who told me about the call into mach to assign pins to input signals dynamically. To support two signal interfacing, what MSM does is make an internal MSM call: AssignTimingPinToProbeSignal (which calls a mach interface that Artsoft asked me not to publicize) just before using the TCP TP. This gets the TCP TP connected to the probe input signal and we use the TCP for TLO measurement actions etc.

Now the plot thickens... and how does MSM know to use one signal or two signals? By the "enabled state" of the timing pin.... since it is no longer used, and it is the only pin avail in ports & pins that is "unused", I choose to implement "timing signal enabled = use two signal interfacing"... That bit of hackery seems to have come home to cause trouble..

Now we can see what happens to your system...
You have a device hooked to the timing signal input; so naturally you enabled the timing signal.. and that tells MSM to use two signal interfacing.

Now we come along and try to measure the length of a tool with the TCP TP... just before doing that, MSM switches the timing PIN to the Probe SIgnal... expecting that to connect the TCP TP to the probe signal... but what happens is the the probe signal never fires - as the TCP TP is not physically connected to the timing signal.... and we go down in flames.... Since the spindle is not running when probing, there was no index pulse sent to the timing input- I'm guessing that the electrical state just happens to be the same as "probe not triggered".

And then just to cover our tracks, the pins get switched back and now the probe is reconnected to the probe signal and so after the TLO measure operation you think the probe works great (and it does) - but that TCP TP is out of luck.

OK, at least I can now see why it never stops moving when you try to use the TCP TP in MSM.

The current question is: What can we do about this?

The first thing we want to do is to disable the timing signal in ports & pins. I realize that will kill your spindle rev stuff - but this is just a first step test.
With the timing disabled, MSM will now think it is in single signal mode - and it will not be swapping pins behind your back - so only the single probe input will be used.
I'd like to know if the Probe to the TCP TP now works with the timing signal disabled, in ports & pins.
If so, we have confirmation of what the problem is.

Now about the RPM input: Are you using the index signal for anything?

I'm thinking that you could reconfigure ports & pins to put the QRD1114 input on the Index signal instead of the Timing signal. (Since I was told to use the Index pulse for spindle rev counting, I'd always done that and I've never tried the timing input.)

With any luck this will allow MSM to work in one signal probe mode and get your RPM input working.

If that combination does not work, then I'll have to figure out some other way to tell MSM about one signal vs two signal mode. I'll have to invent some other method for that and then include the change in a new release.

Dave

[orbscan]

Great Dave!
The problem was the timing!
Now the probes work!
(I will think later at the speed of the spindle...)

Please help me now with further configuration
My probe 2 (see attachment) is TCP TP?

Thank you for all
Carlo

[DaveCVI]

Great Dave!
The problem was the timing!
Now the probes work!
(I will think later at the speed of the spindle...)

OK, that is good news!

Please help me now with further configuration
My probe 2 (see attachment) is TCP TP?

Yes, you are using what I have called "probe 2" as a touch plate. To measure tools, you want to position this under the Tool Change Position (TCP). Since this is the Touch Plate (TP) below the TCP, it is called the TCP TP.

Even though you are using a probe turned upside down, from the viewpoint of MSM, it is a touch plate.

You will now need to calibrate the location of the TCP TP. The system has to know where the Trigger point of the TCP TP is in absolute machine coordinates. MSM remembers this position and uses it in the tool measurement calculations.

The details of how to calibrate a TCP TP are in section 7.1.4 of the user manual. Please work thru that section to set up the TCP TP.

I hate to further complicate this, but now that we have the signal interface problem solved, I want to point you to some more information that you should consider before you go too much further. There are some complications when using a probe as a touch plate... In some ways a simple rigid touch plate can be both simpler and better for accuracy.
Please see this thread for a recent discussion of the topic:
http://www.calypsoventures.com/forums/v ... ?f=6&t=177

Thank you for all
Carlo

No Problem.
Dave