MSMill-Turn Tooling setup

[wayleon50]

I am attempting to get Mach Std Mill -Turn setup but have run into some hair pulling snags.
1. Under the Settings Tab: Choosing the “home and TC sequence” of Z(Y)X doesn’t change the sequence. Homing and tool changes always start with the X move. Is there another setting somewhere? It works fine in MSMill.
2. Setting the Tool block (corner) offsets and the location of the master tool is not a problem. When I attempt to set up subsequent tools the Y offset doesn’t make any sense. I am doing this without a tool probe. If I move +20mm in X, Z and Y, the Tool offsets (distance from my Master tool) for X and Z change to +20 when I press the “touch x/z” buttons. (This is without any additional input in the “boxes”). That makes sense. But when I press the “touch y” button (again with the boxes empty) the tool offset that gets entered is -10mm. I have tried this with Y moved 30mm and the offset entered is 0. If I don’t move Y at all then the value entered is -30mm.
Somewhere I am picking up a 30mm offset. Note that this happens on from my machine control PC and also from the one I use to write and check programs. Also the “WC current position“ changes to zero for x and z when the button are pressed. This makes sense because the tool is theoretically at that position relative to the tool. But the “WC current position“ Y value does not change.

Any Idea what is going on?

And just as a sanity check: Once I have a part faced off with the master tool to the end of the part (Z0) all I have to do is use that faced part to set the z offsets on the rest of my tools? Assuming I am in g54 when I turn the part around to do side two, I use another work offset (g56) face that side to length, setting the work offset to z0 and all the other tools will be set from before. I that correct. How does the fixture offset relate of traditional work offsets?

I have a tool block with 11 tools in it. 3 turning and the rest drills, reamers, boring bars. I have been running in Mach 3 using separate work offsets for each tool and using G52 in the program to adjust tool wear and dial in the diameters. This requires editing the program for minor adjustments. It works but if anything gets shifted everything needs to be dialed in again.
I assume that in MSM-Turn tool the wear values are how to adjusted and dial in diameters.
I have high hopes for MSM-Turn.

Thanks
Wayleon

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
I'll try to answer all the questions -
Please give me some basic information about your setup:
1) what version of MSM are you running?
2) what motion control device are you using (PP, SS usb, SS enet or other)?

I am attempting to get Mach Std Mill -Turn setup but have run into some hair pulling snags.
1. Under the Settings Tab: Choosing the “home and TC sequence” of Z(Y)X doesn’t change the sequence. Homing and tool changes always start with the X move. Is there another setting somewhere? It works fine in MSMill.

Are X,Y,Z axes all enabled on the settings screen?
Is one of the axis select buttons on the settings screen on (green)?

I just retested this using MSM 2.0.9.5 beta and both the "XZ(Y)" and "Z(Y)X" buttons did the expected axis order.
You say you see it start with X always, what happens after X?

I am attempting to get Mach Std Mill -Turn setup but have run into some hair pulling snags.
2. Setting the Tool block (corner) offsets and the location of the master tool is not a problem. When I attempt to set up subsequent tools the Y offset doesn’t make any sense. I am doing this without a tool probe. If I move +20mm in X, Z and Y, the Tool offsets (distance from my Master tool) for X and Z change to +20 when I press the “touch x/z” buttons. (This is without any additional input in the “boxes”). That makes sense. But when I press the “touch y” button (again with the boxes empty) the tool offset that gets entered is -10mm. I have tried this with Y moved 30mm and the offset entered is 0. If I don’t move Y at all then the value entered is -30mm.
Somewhere I am picking up a 30mm offset.

Note that this happens on from my machine control PC and also from the one I use to write and check programs. Also the “WC current position“ changes to zero for x and z when the button are pressed. This makes sense because the tool is theoretically at that position relative to the tool. But the “WC current position“ Y value does not change.

Any Idea what is going on?

Ok this is a bit hard for me to picture from just the post wording (my fault not yours).
Here are some ideas & questions:
1) Do you have master tool mode on or off ?
(I think it's ON given the way you've described this but I want to check)

2) what is the master tool number set to?

3) what tool number is mounted when you do the touch off?

4) What is the value of the "Fixed Y Offset" DRO?
(that could give the fixed offest you are describing).

5) I could better see what is happening if you would do this -
Take a screen shot of the WC offset, touch off page before and just after you click "touch Y".
The difference in DRO readings in the Top panel (the offset calculations panel) will let us see exactly what changed when you touched off Y.

Feel free to email me directly with the screen shots if you want.

I am attempting to get Mach Std Mill -Turn setup but have run into some hair pulling snags.
And just as a sanity check: Once I have a part faced off with the master tool to the end of the part (Z0) all I have to do is use that faced part to set the z offsets on the rest of my tools?

In master tool mode the tool offsets re relative to the master tool - so the TO values will correspond to the difference between the tool and the master.

Assuming I am in g54 when I turn the part around to do side two, I use another work offset (g56) face that side to length, setting the work offset to z0 and all the other tools will be set from before.
If you use the master to set the work offset. Clisckintht tocu off buttons when the master is mounted causes the work offsets to shift.
If you touch off with a non-master tool, the tool offset is set for that tool.

I that correct. How does the fixture offset relate of traditional work offsets?

in mill turn, the Too block Zero provides the offset from machine coords zero to the zero point of the tool block. This is done by setting the "tool blk Offset" values (which are really the mach G52/G92 offset DROs).
The tool offsets are then relative to the tool block zero point.

I have a tool block with 11 tools in it. 3 turning and the rest drills, reamers, boring bars. I have been running in Mach 3 using separate work offsets for each tool and using G52 in the program to adjust tool wear and dial in the diameters.

Be careful then- MSM uses mach's G52 facility to handle the Tool Block Zero concept. If your program sets G52 offsets then MSM will get confused as to where things are...

This requires editing the program for minor adjustments. It works but if anything gets shifted everything needs to be dialed in again.
I assume that in MSM-Turn tool the wear values are how to adjusted and dial in diameters.

Well, I'd like to be that magical.... mach is a bit flakey about how it handles wear values. Most of the time (at least in mIll mode) wear values simply don't work right. Early in MSM development I had to start I recommending that users stay away from wear values in mach3. I then avoided them from the on and frankly, I'm not sure I've ever tried them in mach's lathe mode - I'm not sure what mach does with wear values in lathe mode.

I have high hopes for MSM-Turn.

Thanks
Wayleon

There are not a lot of MSM mill-turn users. I have used it for the projects that first caused me to create it and I've added some features (and a couple of bug fixes) suggested by others (the Fixed Y offset for gang tooling support is an example).
If we do find a bug we'll get it fixed up.

Dave

[wayleon50]

Dave,
I am running MSM 2.0.9 using a Parallel port control.
I have all three axis enabled.
For homing/ tool change:
The axis select button Z(Y)X is green. According to the script editor it should call the "Masters\Scripts\Common\HomingMill-Turn" script. I can't open the .mmc file to see what it actually tells the program to do. The homing sequence regardless of which homing button is green is XZY.
Having separate reference buttons for the axis would help.
Tool offsets:
Here is what I have figured out so far.
With Master Tool Mode on, and a Tool Block Offset set. I can set the offset for the master tool. The offset recorded by pressing the "touch buttons" is the distance from the Tool Block location. All good.
When I go to set the next tools the offsets recorded are not the distance from the Master tool location. I have gotten around this by entering the inverse of the value (changed sign) from the WC Current Position into the Y tool offset ( Y/Turret ). I have just run a complicated program with over 10 tool locations and this works. It appears that somewhere there is an error in translating the Y tool offset sign and value from Master tool position.
Wear/ dial in dimensions:
I have tried this in my program, wear offsets seem to work ok and the value is either added or subtracted from the tool offset and shows up in the Machine Coordinates. My programs so far are written point to point (i.e. no g02 or g03) so I wouldn't expect the wear values to create any complications. The offsets will cause a shift in the tool (X) zero location, everything else should be ok. if I run into problems I will take a screen shot of my tool table (so I don't get lost) and change the x values slightly to dial in the dimensions.
Other issues I ran into.
1. My programs were originally written as mill programs using offsets. They had Y moves in them which in MSM_Turn caused a move to the Master tool Y location. Now I know not to use any Y commands.
2. I couldn’t get G81 or G83 drill cycles to work. I was able to use G73 for shallow holes. But deep holes required custom ( Long) programming for each step and retract.
Some suggestions:
1. The Tool block offset value is lost if MSM is shut down and reopened. I can MDI G52 the value or G52 having it coded into my program. What about using one of the tool values to store the location? Perhaps it could be like the master tool where the operator can designate the "tool" that has the values.
2. When using a ganged tool block where the “tools “ are in different locations and don’t actually have to be changed it would be convenient to have an option to “automatically” run the change without having to physically push the change tool button. That way the program could move from tool to tool without having to babysit the process. This could be similar to the repeatable height and non repeatable height option in MSM.
3. Provide a way to disable the Run Reverse button. I have already pushed this button in error once. I doubt I would need to run in reverse very often if ever, and it is a accident set up and ready to happen.
Thanks for your help. I will keep you posted.
Wayleon

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
Lots of interesting stuff in your last post - to properly consider it I'm going to need to break free a block of time to go thru the details.
It may be a day or two before I can get that done -
I don't want you to think I was ignoring the post; I've just run out of hours in the day and need a little bit to get caught back up.
Dave

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
I'm starting with the homing/tc axis sequence issue.

I am attempting to get Mach Std Mill -Turn setup but have run into some hair pulling snags.
1. Under the Settings Tab: Choosing the “home and TC sequence” of Z(Y)X doesn’t change the sequence. Homing and tool changes always start with the X move. Is there another setting somewhere? It works fine in MSMill.

Are X,Y,Z axes all enabled on the settings screen?
Is one of the axis select buttons on the settings screen on (green)?

I just retested this using MSM 2.0.9.5 beta and both the "XZ(Y)" and "Z(Y)X" buttons did the expected axis order.
You say you see it start with X always, what happens after X?

Dave

I've loaded up MSM 2.0.9 pro - so I'm testing on the same release you are running.

Please try this for me:
1) go to the settings page and click the "Z(Y)X" button - it should turn green.
2) jog away from the TC position.
2) go to the tooling page, click the "Go TC Pos'n" button and watch the order the axes move. Is it doing Z(Y)X?

If not, then I think something may be amiss in the installation. To remove that possibility, please reinstall MSM over itself. (That will give you clean copies of the MSM scripts etc). Then try this test again -
Please let me know what happens.

Another possibility is that the "go TC Posn" is ok, but the Ref-all home is not. I'll go retest ref-all home for mill-turn tomorrow (that requires that I use the shop mill for the test).
Are you using ref-all home to initiate the homing action?

BTW - there are individual ref buttons for each axis on the run page.

Dave

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
Ok, here we go - I"ll try to hit all the topics.

Dave,
I am running MSM 2.0.9 using a Parallel port control.
I have all three axis enabled.
For homing/ tool change:
The axis select button Z(Y)X is green. According to the script editor it should call the "Masters\Scripts\Common\HomingMill-Turn" script. I can't open the .mmc file to see what it actually tells the program to do. The homing sequence regardless of which homing button is green is XZY.
Having separate reference buttons for the axis would help.

This topic is still active - I posted previously about this with some suggestions and tests, I'll not continue this in this post but instead wait until you respond to that other post.

Tool offsets:
Here is what I have figured out so far.
With Master Tool Mode on, and a Tool Block Offset set. I can set the offset for the master tool. The offset recorded by pressing the "touch buttons" is the distance from the Tool Block location. All good.
When I go to set the next tools the offsets recorded are not the distance from the Master tool location.

I'm not seeing that at all. I sense that we're not on the same page yet re what you are doing and what I am doing. So I stepped thru it and took screen shots as I went. Please see the pdf attached to this post for more info.

I have gotten around this by entering the inverse of the value (changed sign) from the WC Current Position into the Y tool offset ( Y/Turret ). I have just run a complicated program with over 10 tool locations and this works. It appears that somewhere there is an error in translating the Y tool offset sign and value from Master tool position.

Turn gets confusing as there are many ways to get a sign reversal (front/rear tool posts etc).
I'm pretty sure that the MSM calculations are correct as I (and others) have run parts on it. A sign reversal would be an obvious error (as it appears to be to you).
I have a suspicion that you may not have the machine set up with a right handed coordinate system?
The convention test is a bit hard to do w/o an illustration, but I"ll try:
Flatten your right hand and have the thumb at right angles to your fingers. point your fingers in the +x direction, then bend your fingers in until they point in the +y direction... your thumb should now be pointing n the +z direction. If that does not happen the the machine is not set up in a right handed coord system.

Wear/ dial in dimensions:
I have tried this in my program, wear offsets seem to work ok and the value is either added or subtracted from the tool offset and shows up in the Machine Coordinates. My programs so far are written point to point (i.e. no g02 or g03) so I wouldn't expect the wear values to create any complications. The offsets will cause a shift in the tool (X) zero location, everything else should be ok. if I run into problems I will take a screen shot of my tool table (so I don't get lost) and change the x values slightly to dial in the dimensions.
Other issues I ran into.
OK

Other issues I ran into.
1. My programs were originally written as mill programs using offsets. They had Y moves in them which in MSM_Turn caused a move to the Master tool Y location. Now I know not to use any Y commands.

MSM Mill-Turn was created to run lathe programs on the mill. Of course, lathe programs have no Y moves as there is no Y axis in lathe programs. yet on a mill you do have a physical Y axis - and I needed to deal with a "Y offset" to get tool aligned on the center line of the stock in Y. The approach was to a) create a way to set a Y offset) and then b) put all Y handling in the tool change logic. This hid al Y handling in tool changes and let the system run XZ lather program unmodified.
Before I started MIl-turn I had thought that any attempt to do a Y axis move with mach in Turn gcode mode would result in a syntax error - but it doesn't.. (mach is really a mill interpreter that was modified (incompletely) to have some changes for lathe gcode). IN any case, making a Y move will mess up the MSM Y offset handling as MSM assumes there are no Y moves in the lather programs it is running in mill-turn mode.

Other issues I ran into.
2. I couldn’t get G81 or G83 drill cycles to work. I was able to use G73 for shallow holes. But deep holes required custom ( Long) programming for each step and retract.

Hum - I'll add this to my list of curiosities to look into. Note that MSM does not implement the gocdes - mach does. So I am pretty sure that you are seeing whatever mach does for those codes when in lather.turn mode. I'm guessing that this means they are broken for all turn machines then.

Some suggestions:
1. The Tool block offset value is lost if MSM is shut down and reopened. I can MDI G52 the value or G52 having it coded into my program. What about using one of the tool values to store the location? Perhaps it could be like the master tool where the operator can designate the "tool" that has the values.

Yes, that is a PITA. I consider it a mach bug - when you check "persistent DROs" and "persistent offsets" in the mach general config dialog, you sort of expect those things to be persistent.... but for some reason the G52/G92 registers are not.
To have MSM save them and restore them on start would be nice - but is not a quick thing to implement, so it has not been done yet.

2. When using a ganged tool block where the “tools “ are in different locations and don’t actually have to be changed it would be convenient to have an option to “automatically” run the change without having to physically push the change tool button. That way the program could move from tool to tool without having to babysit the process.

MSM sets up mill-turn by default in mach's stop&wait mode for tool changes. That is what causes you to have to press the cycle start button after the tool change. It will also happily run in ATC (auto tool change) mode. You can do that for your system if you want. You would then need to provide an M6ATC script for the system. See MSM mill manual and search for M6ATC for more info.

This could be similar to the repeatable height and non repeatable height option in MSM.

Mach's ATC or Stop&Wait modes are global rather than on a tool by tool basis.

3. Provide a way to disable the Run Reverse button. I have already pushed this button in error once. I doubt I would need to run in reverse very often if ever, and it is a accident set up and ready to happen.

Yeah, I am not find of that button myself. When MSM was written There was a requirement that it support all the things the 1024 screens had - s it also got the reverse run button.
You could customize MSM to have the reverse run button point to a different script - either one that does nothing or the existing run button script.

Thanks for your help. I will keep you posted.
Wayleon

No problem,
Dave

[pylyp]

Tool offsets:
Here is what I have figured out so far.
With Master Tool Mode on, and a Tool Block Offset set. I can set the offset for the master tool. The offset recorded by pressing the "touch buttons" is the distance from the Tool Block location. All good.
When I go to set the next tools the offsets recorded are not the distance from the Master tool location.

I'm not seeing that at all. I sense that we're not on the same page yet re what you are doing and what I am doing. So I stepped thru it and took screen shots as I went. Please see the pdf attached to this post for more info.

I'm afraid I have the same problem with v2.0.6 and v2.0.12 using Mach3 R3.043.066 running on XP SP3.
I cloned a Tormach profile and everything appears to be functional except for the Y-axis offsets.
Initially the values appeared random but I did manage to find a relationship between them and the other values. I have included an image of the result (NUB size was 0); just after pressing the Touch Y button.
The Y Tool Offset is actually equal to Y M Coords + Y WC Offset + X Tool Blk Offset.
I can't imagine what the relationship is between the this offset and the X Tool Block Offset.

Interestingly, in your pdf you wrote

"Thus the tip of T2 is now exactly where the tip of T1 was…. So touching tool 2 to the
same point, will give offsets for t2 that are all =0. This is a sanity check as a tool that is
the same as the master will have 0 delta from the master and so it’s offsets will all = 0."

but in your next image your Y Tool Offset is not 0 but has the value 2. Using the equation above, the result equates to:
6.5 + 0.5 + (-5) = 2

Am I missing something fundamental here?
Any ideas?
SP

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
First, my apologies for my delay in responding - somehow I seem to have let this post slip through a crack.

Setting up mill-turn offsets can get complicated. Complicated enough that I will need to sit down at a mill, set it up for mill turn and then step thru the doc I wrote before to find if there is an error in it.

My immediate conundrum is that I can't do that anytime soon as the machine that I'd have to use has a job setup on it for another customer project that I can't tear down right now.

I'm sorry that I don't have a better, more immediate resposne to offer right now..

Dave

[pylyp]

Hello Dave
No problem! I modified the macros and managed to go get it working the way I was expecting (but perhaps not the way you initially intended).
I created a custom All-LatheTouchOffY macro with the following calculation which is only used when master tool mode is ON and when the selected tool is NOT the master tool:
CurrToolTurretAngle = YAxisMachine - YWCOffsetAxis - G92YAxisOffset + NubDiameter / 2

All other calls are directed to the original master macro.

This created the Y offset that I was expecting. The "Move Tool to Y Center" button also moved the correct amount, but in the wrong direction. I then replaced this macro to reverse the direction.

As I say, this produces the results that I expected, and I was able to machine my first part with gang tooling, but it may not be how you intended the software to behave.

I have another small issue but I would prefer to mail you directly.
SP

[DaveCVI]

hi, since you said that Y was moving in the reverse of what you expected, I wanted to ask; How do you have the machine coordinate home switches set up on your machine?

I did Mill-turn assuming a standard right handed coordinate system. As you face the a vertical mill, this would put the MC 0,0,0 point at the left (X), rear (Y, away fro you) and top (of Z).

Do you perhaps have MC Y0 at the end of Y travel closest ot you as you face the machine?

Dave