Calypso CNC User Forums

Dave,

I Use the Master Tool mode with all repeatable holders, even drill bits, and I have been frustrated from time to time if there is a glitch and the probe tip gets damaged from either not stopping while probing Z or some other goofy mishap like user error in handling or dropping the probe.. this becomes an ordeal and a lot of wasted time in resetting all of the TLO's for the new master tool PTL.

Is there a better method to use traditional TLO measurements off of the gauge line and have them be calculated automatically based on the new MT PTL? this would save a lot of time and aggravation as I now have almost 50 RH tools that require remeasuring when something wonky happens and I have to change a tip on the Probe Tool or if I need to use a different length Tip for a special job. I am sure you can imagine, it ALWAYS happens at an inopportune time. By using TLO's with the Gauge Line, the TLO's would still be correctly measured regardless of what happens to the MT. and if the Calculation could be done so the MT PTL WHen Measured is then used to determine the new MTM TLO for using the probe as the Master Tool.

Does this make sense to you? It does to me given the inevitability of probing issues that occur randomly. It would also mean that there would only be one method required to enter Tool length offsets in the software. it would also mean I **think** that you could use the same method to determine the Probe Tool Physical Tool Length as it would be measured and recorded the same as the other tools off the gauge line. I do potentially see there could be a complication if you couldn't measure the spindle nose because of limited travel, but then you could use the block gauge method couldn't you? on my machine I can lower the spindle nose enough to tough my touch plate so it wouldn't be an issue.

this would also mean that any tools measure on the bench would be accurate as well for use in MTM. Just thinking out loud as I remeasure 50 tools after a probe tip replacement.

Chris

Hi Chris,
When MSM's master tool mode is used, the TLO values ro each tool are relative to the master tool. So if the MT length changes, the ther TLOs are no longer valid.

MSM has two other built in ways to handle TLO:
1) Each TLO is relative to a common z level that the TLOs are set from.
In this case the TLO value is the Z distance fro MCZ0 to the touch MC touch of Z level.

2) Use the PTL as the TLO value.
In this case the TLO value is set to the PTL of the tool when the tool is measured.
Since this is the distance from the gauge line to the tool tip, it sounds like it may be what you are after.

Perhaps one of those would be better matched to your usage. A good source for info on these other TLO techniques is Peter Smid's Book.

Dave

Dave,

I am aware of the various methods in the MSM manual as I read through to see if i was missing an option for using the probe tool as the MT BUT the ability to still set the PTL of each tool based off the spindle nose or gauge line.

So to simplify what I was asking which I think you misunderstood..

This is my question more briefly stated:

I would like to use the gauge line method for all tools, but still be able to use the probe as the master tool. This way if the probe/master tool crashes I don't have to remeasure 50 tools again because they are no longer valid. I would only have to enter the new physical tool length of the Master tool/probe tool and it would be used in the calculation to determine the TLO's while in MTM.

This makes much more sense to me as you can then simply add a new tool based on its physical tool length and the calculation is performed against the MT for its TLO in MTM.

For instance,

MT (Probe tool) PTL = 3.00"

T5 PTL = 2.00"

Calculation would be:

T5 PTL - MT PTL = T5 MTM TLO

2.00 - 3.00 = (-1.00")

This shows that the T5 TLO is 1" shorter and offsets the Z axis (-1.00") when this tool is used.

If T6 PTL= 4.00", then

4.00" - 3.00 = +1.00"

so it offsets the Z axis +1.00"

This would save a tremendous amount of time for repeatable holder users who don't utilize the Auto TLO for every tool change but rather just want the functionality of the Probe Tool as the Master tool for part zeroing. This solves the issue of remeasuring every tool if the Probe crashes (Which lets face it, happens randomly and I have seen this discussed ad nauseum by MANY others besides myself)

This also allows me to bench measure a tool if needed and manually enter in the PTL an have it ready to go with the Master Tool/Probe Tool functionality.

So I am asking if it is possible to have that as an option in MSM?

Thanks!

Chris (Still Remeasuring Tools from a probe Crash)

lcvette wrote:Dave,

<snip>
This is my question more briefly stated:

I would like to use the gauge line method for all tools, but still be able to use the probe as the master tool. This way if the probe/master tool crashes I don't have to remeasure 50 tools again because they are no longer valid. I would only have to enter the new physical tool length of the Master tool/probe tool and it would be used in the calculation to determine the TLO's while in MTM.

This makes much more sense to me as you can then simply add a new tool based on its physical tool length and the calculation is performed against the MT for its TLO in MTM.
<snip>

Ah, sorry, I think I understand what you want now.
I've scratched my head a bit, but I am not coming up with a way to do that.

I'll elaborate a bit...

The calcs you gave are what MSM does to figure the TLO value when in MTM.
A tool measurement does two things:
a) measures the tool's PTL and stores that value (in a custom field in the tool table)
b) calculates a TLO value and stores that value in the tool table TLO field.

MSM only calcs a TLO value when one of two events happens:
1) A tool change (in this case, the measurement and TLO logic is invoked as part of the MSM M6 extensions)
2) An explicit tool measurement is invoked by the user ( in this case the button code invokes the MSM measurement and TLO logic).

I can see that what you want would be helpful, but I think (so far) that this would require the ability to calc a TLO value from the stored MT PTL and current tool's PTL value dynamically - i.e. whenever a TLO value is about to be applied by mach. It's the "dynamic" part of that which is the problem.

Mach3 doesn't have any script hooks that get invoked when a G43 is executed. When mach does a G43 Hx it simply pulls the TLO value from the internal tool table and uses it as the new current TLO value. The internal mach assumption is that TLO values are static and can can just be grabbed when needed. To do what you want, the TLO value would have to be calculated just before the G43 gets the TLO value form the table (in case the MT PTL had changed). I don't know of any way to do that.

There are also other times that mach "auto magically" applies a TLO value (without an explicit G43 from the Code - which is another long standing rant I have about mach3) and I have no way to get the TLO calc code invoked when those events happen.

One thing I thought of: Would be a script that would run thru the tool table and re-calc the MTM TLO values be useful?
Then if you crashed a MT (it doesn't really matter for this if the MT = PT or not), you would remeasure the MT (probe) which would get an updated PTL for the master tool into the tool table, and then recalc the other TLOs using the new MT PTL by running a script.

If you know that the PTL values of the non-master tools were good values, this would give you new TLOs without having to physically mount and measure each tool.

There could be some gotchas here though:
The script would need to figure out what tool #s to recalc the TLOs for. There are several choices for that:
a) Do all tools. This would put TLO values in tool table entries that may not be set up for MT mode (some people segment the tool table numbers for different TLO schemes).
b) Just do the calc for all tool entries marked as RH.
c) Just do the calc for tools that are RH and NOT empty. Off the top of my head I think this choice makes the most sense.

In any case the script would only run if MT is active (to lower the mess that running this would cause for non-MT situations).

If this would help, I could whip up the script. MSM already has a way to invoke an arbitrary maintenance script (Settings page run maint script button). I would use that mechanism as I don't think this would be a common enough situation to warrant adding a "recalc MT TLOs" button the screen sets.

FYI, I'm about to get on a long plane flight in a couple of hours, so I may not respond again until I get reconnected at the other end of this trip.

Dave

Dave,

YES!!!! that is exactly the solution I was looking for. I agree the calc should be for RH tools, Not empty. that would be a BLESSING for those of us who love MTM and don't use a permanently mounted tool plate and auto tlo measuring.

so essentially, I could bench measure a new tool, enter it into the tool table with its PTL, and when the button was pressed as long as it was saved in the tool table as a RH and not empty, it would calculate its MTM TLO. if I interpreted correctly and that is what you are envisioning then YES a thousand times over, SO much faster then swapping tools in and out of the mill and if the MT Probe Tool needs to be replaced or a different length probe tip used, simply measure the new MT PTL enter it in, hit the magic button and you are good to go, all the existing PTL's from the gauge line remain intact and safe to be used if the MT PTL is changed. if a non-MT tool is replaced you make the change in the tool table and no biggie.. Dave this really would be a godsend for those of us that use primarily RH tools and even if you wanted to use a NRH tool you could measure it pop it in the tool table and set it as a RH and it is ready for use, very streamlined and simple! Love it!!!!!

Thanks a million if you can make this a reality!!

Chris

OK, here is a 1st pass at MTM TLO recalc script for you to test.

Copy the attached script to
C:\Mach3\ScreenSetMacros\MachStdMill.set\Masters\Scripts\Maintenance\

THen you should be able to go to the settings page, use the "run Maint Script" button and you will find
RecalculateMTMTLOs.mcc

Run that and it will recalc the MTM TLOS for all non-empty and RH tools in the tool table.

Note: this has only had minimal testing - you get to get the guiena pig

Please make up a test tool table with some easy to verify numbers,
For example: like a MT PTL of 10 and a tool with a PTL of 8 and a tool with PTL 12. Then run the script and see that the the resulting TLO numbers make sense (I.e. that I did not do something silly like reverse the signs of the calculated TLOS etc).

Please let me know id this works as desired etc, If it does I'll add it to a future MSM release.

Dave

DaveCVI wrote:OK, here is a 1st pass at MTM TLO recalc script for you to test.

Copy the attached script to
C:\Mach3\ScreenSetMacros\MachStdMill.set\Masters\Scripts\Maintenance\

THen you should be able to go to the settings page, use the "run Maint Script" button and you will find
RecalculateMTMTLOs.mcc

Run that and it will recalc the MTM TLOS for all non-empty and RH tools in the tool table.

Note: this has only had minimal testing - you get to get the guiena pig

Please make up a test tool table with some easy to verify numbers,
For example: like a MT PTL of 10 and a tool with a PTL of 8 and a tool with PTL 12. Then run the script and see that the the resulting TLO numbers make sense (I.e. that I did not do something silly like reverse the signs of the calculated TLOS etc).

Please let me know id this works as desired etc, If it does I'll add it to a future MSM release.

Dave

Dave,

I Will go try it now Dave and report back, Thanks for the help on this, it is a MAJOR time saver!!!

Will report shortly!

Chris

Dave,

Huge Thanks!! works like a dream, tried changing the MT PTL a few times on both longer and short tools and it showed correctly in the new TLO's in the current tool window. I loaded up a longer and shorter tool and setup a piece of stock in the vice and used the MT Probe to find a corner. I then removed the stock (just in Case) and called for M6 T1, loaded the tool, confirmed the tool change, hot the goto zero, it went to the probe tool zero.. then i saw the TLO's were not illuminated, so i activated TLO's and hit goto zero and it went to zero for T1... slid the stock under and it was deadnuts on! tried it again with the longer tool and same thing, dead nuts on!

Dave! this was a LONG TIME COMING, I cannot tell you how many times this would have saved me countless hours of frustration! I would strongly consider adding this as an option as it just makes so much more sense to me to be able to do it this way. the ability to quickly measure a tool offline or online and enter it in, make it a RH and not empty, call the maintenance script and poof its in, easy peasy ready to use with MTM! and if ya crash your probe and need to replace a tip, no biggie measure the new PTL of the probe enter it in and run the script voila all tools good to go again!

I will gladly enter in all my PTL's now for all of my tools to the gauge line and run the script and test it out with more then just the two tools i used for the preliminary test.I am soo happy I could hug you Dave!!!

Thanks soo much!!

Chris

Glad to know it works as you wanted. I'll include the script it in a future MSM release.
Dave