I hope some one can help me. I recently purchased MSM and woul love to be able to use the TCP TP in conjunction with my 3D probe to automatically calculate TLOs. However, I cannot get my touch plate to work correctly. I have a CNC4PC c-10 BOB and am using input pins "11" to provide the power an ground to the plate. I enabled the "timing" input on input and pins with port 1 and pin 11 and checked it active low. The problem seems to be that whenever contact is made on the plate with a tool pin 11 led illuminates but so does the other LEDs for my homing switches which are in series and wired to pin 13 and my estop which is on pin 14 and I get an estop. So what am I doing wrong? The MSM manual specifically stated to enable timing for the touch plate so not sure what I have done wrong. I really want to be able to use the TCP TP capability for the auto TLO but right now it's a no go. Any help greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Greg
Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Hi,
A common set up would be for there to be a resister from +5v to the input pin, then the wire from the input pin goes to the TP. The +5v and the resister cause the input to be at +5v when the input line is not connected.
Some BoB's have a resister to +5 internal to the BoB (so the external resister is then not needed). I'm not familiar with the details of the C10, but Arturo would be able to tell you that detail.
The machine frame is ground,so touching the TP to the frame should cause the input to go to ground (0v) and since the signal is set active low, this causes the logical signal into mach to be active.
If grounding pin 11 causes the homing and estop signals to go active, there are two things that come to mind:
1) If the pins for homing and estop are physically going active (as shown by the LEDs on the hardware page), I suspect a electrical wiring issue - somehow the pins are interconnected.
2) If the signals (the mach level) for homing and estop are going active, but the physical input pins that the signals are mapped to are not, then I suspect that the ports & pins settings has more than one signal mapped to the same pin.
I'd start at the bottom layer (pins) and work up.
a) check that the input pin voltage is doing what you expect at the physical input pin. Does pin 11 stay at +5v then go to 0v when the plate touches the machine frame?
b) do the homing and estop input pins change input voltage when the TP input changes?
(Measure at the actual physical inputs of the BoB).
Another thought: Some BoB's have a weird mode that trys to time multiplex pins and thus get two PP worth of pins from one physical PP... if the C10 supports this and you are set up to use PP multiplexing, things will never work right (PP multiplexing is a nasty kludge (that few know about) in mach and it causes many problems). Neither MSM one signal nor two signal setups will work with PP multiplexing.
Dave
I am slightly confused by this sentence.... An input pin to the Bob is an input to mach. The pin can not supply both "power and ground" - it's an input, so it does not normally "supply anything".GMcG wrote:I hope some one can help me. I recently purchased MSM and woul love to be able to use the TCP TP in conjunction with my 3D probe to automatically calculate TLOs. However, I cannot get my touch plate to work correctly. I have a CNC4PC c-10 BOB and am using input pins "11" to provide the power an ground to the plate.
A common set up would be for there to be a resister from +5v to the input pin, then the wire from the input pin goes to the TP. The +5v and the resister cause the input to be at +5v when the input line is not connected.
Some BoB's have a resister to +5 internal to the BoB (so the external resister is then not needed). I'm not familiar with the details of the C10, but Arturo would be able to tell you that detail.
The machine frame is ground,so touching the TP to the frame should cause the input to go to ground (0v) and since the signal is set active low, this causes the logical signal into mach to be active.
OKGMcG wrote:I enabled the "timing" input on input and pins with port 1 and pin 11 and checked it active low.
That is very odd. I assume you are referring to the LEDs on the MSM parallel port hardware page. Those LEDs are driven by a direct read of the parallel port registers - so when a pin LED is on, you are seeing the state for the bit in the register which corresponds to the input voltage for that pin.GMcG wrote: The problem seems to be that whenever contact is made on the plate with a tool pin 11 led illuminates but so does the other LEDs for my homing switches which are in series and wired to pin 13 and my estop which is on pin 14 and I get an estop. So what am I doing wrong?
If grounding pin 11 causes the homing and estop signals to go active, there are two things that come to mind:
1) If the pins for homing and estop are physically going active (as shown by the LEDs on the hardware page), I suspect a electrical wiring issue - somehow the pins are interconnected.
2) If the signals (the mach level) for homing and estop are going active, but the physical input pins that the signals are mapped to are not, then I suspect that the ports & pins settings has more than one signal mapped to the same pin.
Since you are using the timing signal, I assume you are using the "two signal" setup for MSM (as that is the reason for the use of the timing signal - which is actually no longer used by mach for "timing" purposes).GMcG wrote:The MSM manual specifically stated to enable timing for the touch plate so not sure what I have done wrong. I really want to be able to use the TCP TP capability for the auto TLO but right now it's a no go. Any help greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Greg
I'd start at the bottom layer (pins) and work up.
a) check that the input pin voltage is doing what you expect at the physical input pin. Does pin 11 stay at +5v then go to 0v when the plate touches the machine frame?
b) do the homing and estop input pins change input voltage when the TP input changes?
(Measure at the actual physical inputs of the BoB).
Another thought: Some BoB's have a weird mode that trys to time multiplex pins and thus get two PP worth of pins from one physical PP... if the C10 supports this and you are set up to use PP multiplexing, things will never work right (PP multiplexing is a nasty kludge (that few know about) in mach and it causes many problems). Neither MSM one signal nor two signal setups will work with PP multiplexing.
Dave
Productivity Software for Personal CNC Machinists
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
Thank you so much for such a quick reply. I will try and test some of your recommendations today.
A few corrections on my post... The input for estop is on pin 13 and my homing switches are in series on pin 12. Pin 14 is an output pin and not as I previously indicated as an input. All of these pins (10, 11, 12, 13) are pulled down by a jumper on the BOB.
So to clarify, if I take a pair of wires from the BOB from input pin set 11, with the +5V wire going to the touch plate and the Gnd wire going to the frame, I should have an active low touch plate? (Assuming I have it set correctly in pins and ports as described previously).
Also should I assume that in testing the TP that I will only get correct response (input signal on pin 11) when MSM has asked the TP to be active through the use of the timing choice of inputs in the MSM coding? For example is it only active when I ask for it to do an auto TLO at the TPC TP? In other words is the TP suppose to be inactive and therefore no voltage to the plate when not being used?
Thanks again
Greg
Thank you so much for such a quick reply. I will try and test some of your recommendations today.
A few corrections on my post... The input for estop is on pin 13 and my homing switches are in series on pin 12. Pin 14 is an output pin and not as I previously indicated as an input. All of these pins (10, 11, 12, 13) are pulled down by a jumper on the BOB.
So to clarify, if I take a pair of wires from the BOB from input pin set 11, with the +5V wire going to the touch plate and the Gnd wire going to the frame, I should have an active low touch plate? (Assuming I have it set correctly in pins and ports as described previously).
Also should I assume that in testing the TP that I will only get correct response (input signal on pin 11) when MSM has asked the TP to be active through the use of the timing choice of inputs in the MSM coding? For example is it only active when I ask for it to do an auto TLO at the TPC TP? In other words is the TP suppose to be inactive and therefore no voltage to the plate when not being used?
Thanks again
Greg
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Hi,
Effectively, this is the same as not having the input wire connected to the input pin. IN this state the input voltage at the pin should be +5v.
The touch plate acts like a normally open switch contact. When the plate touches the machine frame, it directly connects the input pin to the frame, which is ground and thus 0v. The reason for the resister from the pin to +5 is so that when the touch plate shorts the input to ground, we are not shorting the +5v supply directly to ground (which would attempt to pull (for a moment) infinite current from the power supply, the 5v supply will not like that.
Let's talk of two different things:
1) the physical input pin (lowest) level
2) the mach signal level.
The physical input voltage should act as described above. Measuring voltage at the input pin tells you what the input really is.
When using a parallel port, you can also see the state of the PP pins on the MSM PP hardware page. That page shows the actual bit in the parallel port hardware register. So looking at the PP hardware page, and seeing that it tracks the physical input voltage input will tall you that the PP is working and that the software can read bits from the PP.
Now we go up a layer to the mach signal layer. Mach uses logical input signals to tell mach about different events in the physical world. The two we are concerned with here are the "probe" and "timing" signals. You use the mach ports & pins dialog to assign mach signals to specific pins.
The probe signal is what tells mach that a probe trigger has occurred. The timing signal is actually not used by mach in any recent release. But mach only knows how to look at signals (Not pins) - so MSM uses the timing signal as it's the only one that is defined in mach that is not used for anything by mach. In a two signal setup, what MSM does is dynamically swap between using the probe signal and the timing signal. Normally (99.9% of the time) the probe signal is what the probe LED son the MSM screens are showing. MSM then switches the mach probe signal from the "probe pin" to the "timing pin" when it knows that the TP is being used, and it then switches things back to normal as soon as the operation is done.
Therefore, in and MSM two signal set up, you will not see the probe led change state when you touch the plate to the machine frame - because the pin associated with the timing signal is not connected to the mach probe input (and hence not to the MSM probe LEDs on the screen). You can however, see the state of the Timing signal on the MSM hardware page, signal tab (if using a PP).
If you get the low level stuff working correctly, the MSM dynamic switching will make it all work magically when the TP is actually used.
Dave
The terminology refers to the state of the input pin when it's "Active". Let's first consider the inverse state: when the pin is "inactive". The inactive condition is the voltage that you read at the pin when the device that is connected is not active. In this case that would be the touch plate witting in air, and not connected (via a tool or via direct touch) to the frame of the machine.GMcG wrote:Dave
Thank you so much for such a quick reply. I will try and test some of your recommendations today.
A few corrections on my post... The input for estop is on pin 13 and my homing switches are in series on pin 12. Pin 14 is an output pin and not as I previously indicated as an input. All of these pins (10, 11, 12, 13) are pulled down by a jumper on the BOB.
So to clarify, if I take a pair of wires from the BOB from input pin set 11, with the +5V wire going to the touch plate and the Gnd wire going to the frame, I should have an active low touch plate? (Assuming I have it set correctly in pins and ports as described previously).
Effectively, this is the same as not having the input wire connected to the input pin. IN this state the input voltage at the pin should be +5v.
The touch plate acts like a normally open switch contact. When the plate touches the machine frame, it directly connects the input pin to the frame, which is ground and thus 0v. The reason for the resister from the pin to +5 is so that when the touch plate shorts the input to ground, we are not shorting the +5v supply directly to ground (which would attempt to pull (for a moment) infinite current from the power supply, the 5v supply will not like that.
Yes, this is corrrect - at the mach signal level.GMcG wrote: Also should I assume that in testing the TP that I will only get correct response (input signal on pin 11) when MSM has asked the TP to be active through the use of the timing choice of inputs in the MSM coding? For example is it only active when I ask for it to do an auto TLO at the TPC TP? In other words is the TP suppose to be inactive and therefore no voltage to the plate when not being used?
Thanks again
Greg
Let's talk of two different things:
1) the physical input pin (lowest) level
2) the mach signal level.
The physical input voltage should act as described above. Measuring voltage at the input pin tells you what the input really is.
When using a parallel port, you can also see the state of the PP pins on the MSM PP hardware page. That page shows the actual bit in the parallel port hardware register. So looking at the PP hardware page, and seeing that it tracks the physical input voltage input will tall you that the PP is working and that the software can read bits from the PP.
Now we go up a layer to the mach signal layer. Mach uses logical input signals to tell mach about different events in the physical world. The two we are concerned with here are the "probe" and "timing" signals. You use the mach ports & pins dialog to assign mach signals to specific pins.
The probe signal is what tells mach that a probe trigger has occurred. The timing signal is actually not used by mach in any recent release. But mach only knows how to look at signals (Not pins) - so MSM uses the timing signal as it's the only one that is defined in mach that is not used for anything by mach. In a two signal setup, what MSM does is dynamically swap between using the probe signal and the timing signal. Normally (99.9% of the time) the probe signal is what the probe LED son the MSM screens are showing. MSM then switches the mach probe signal from the "probe pin" to the "timing pin" when it knows that the TP is being used, and it then switches things back to normal as soon as the operation is done.
Therefore, in and MSM two signal set up, you will not see the probe led change state when you touch the plate to the machine frame - because the pin associated with the timing signal is not connected to the mach probe input (and hence not to the MSM probe LEDs on the screen). You can however, see the state of the Timing signal on the MSM hardware page, signal tab (if using a PP).
If you get the low level stuff working correctly, the MSM dynamic switching will make it all work magically when the TP is actually used.
Dave
Productivity Software for Personal CNC Machinists
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
Your advice has helped me get the TP connected properly to my BOB and I have looked at (numerous times) the videos on how to use MSM to set up the TP.
I have the touch plate configured with port 1 and pin 11 for "timing" and my touch probe on port 1 and pin 10 for "probe". I have the touch plate enabled and active low. The probe is enabled and active low. The probe works absolutely perfectly with MSM probing functions. However my touch plate set up isn't working.
After referencing all three axis I go to the tooling page and ask the machine to go to the tool change position. Once there I select a tool with the MDI (T7 M6), insert the tool and then select cycle start. I then go to the settings page and insure that TCP TP Installed is selected and then click on Set TCP TP MCz. When I do so I get the question and ask for setting the tools PTL. When insert that value and click OK the machine moves the Z axis maybe .01 inches and the states that TP not set or TP not found. I have tried a number of things including changing the active low to active high setting on the TP. I tried setting the denounce really high (2000) to see if interference might have bee causing the problem, but thi had no effect an returned it to 50. The video shows this to be a very simple set up. What am I doing wrong. By the way in configuration does the TCP mod bus have anything to do with any of the setup?
Sure could use some help as I feel like it is probably something very simple I am missing.
Thanks
Greg
Your advice has helped me get the TP connected properly to my BOB and I have looked at (numerous times) the videos on how to use MSM to set up the TP.
I have the touch plate configured with port 1 and pin 11 for "timing" and my touch probe on port 1 and pin 10 for "probe". I have the touch plate enabled and active low. The probe is enabled and active low. The probe works absolutely perfectly with MSM probing functions. However my touch plate set up isn't working.
After referencing all three axis I go to the tooling page and ask the machine to go to the tool change position. Once there I select a tool with the MDI (T7 M6), insert the tool and then select cycle start. I then go to the settings page and insure that TCP TP Installed is selected and then click on Set TCP TP MCz. When I do so I get the question and ask for setting the tools PTL. When insert that value and click OK the machine moves the Z axis maybe .01 inches and the states that TP not set or TP not found. I have tried a number of things including changing the active low to active high setting on the TP. I tried setting the denounce really high (2000) to see if interference might have bee causing the problem, but thi had no effect an returned it to 50. The video shows this to be a very simple set up. What am I doing wrong. By the way in configuration does the TCP mod bus have anything to do with any of the setup?
Sure could use some help as I feel like it is probably something very simple I am missing.
Thanks
Greg
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
I'd like to add some information that I just discovered to my posted question of an hour ago.
I mentioned in that earlier post that both the probe and TP were set to active low. That is incorrect the probe is set to active high and the TP to active low. However, when the probe is active high the LED for the probe is illuminated on the hardware page and when the probe is touched it extinguishes the LED. Therefore I thought that maybe the problem was that MSM wouldn't set the TP because the probe LED was illuminated. So I changed the setting of the probe from active high to active low, that extinguished the probe LED on the hardware page. However as soon as I go back to the procedure for setting the TCP TP by either using the set TCP TP button on the tooling page or use the set TCP TP MCz button the action changes the input pins page for the probe from active low to active high and therefore turns on the LED for the probe.
So I wanted you to have that information
I'd like to add some information that I just discovered to my posted question of an hour ago.
I mentioned in that earlier post that both the probe and TP were set to active low. That is incorrect the probe is set to active high and the TP to active low. However, when the probe is active high the LED for the probe is illuminated on the hardware page and when the probe is touched it extinguishes the LED. Therefore I thought that maybe the problem was that MSM wouldn't set the TP because the probe LED was illuminated. So I changed the setting of the probe from active high to active low, that extinguished the probe LED on the hardware page. However as soon as I go back to the procedure for setting the TCP TP by either using the set TCP TP button on the tooling page or use the set TCP TP MCz button the action changes the input pins page for the probe from active low to active high and therefore turns on the LED for the probe.
So I wanted you to have that information
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Hi,
That DRO limits the distance the spindle will move for a probe to the TCP TP.
In MSM, "TCP" is short for "Tool change Position"
In computer networks, TCP = Transmission Contol Protocol"
Just an overload of the abbreviations.
Dave
go to the settgin page, common tab, look at the right side.. find the "Max Dist" DRO - is it set to a small value?GMcG wrote:...
When I do so I get the question and ask for setting the tools PTL. When insert that value and click OK the machine moves the Z axis maybe .01 inches and the states that TP not set or TP not found. I have tried a number of things including changing the active low to active high setting on the TP. I tried setting the denounce really high (2000) to see if interference might have bee causing the problem, but thi had no effect an returned it to 50. The video shows this to be a very simple set up. What am I doing wrong.
That DRO limits the distance the spindle will move for a probe to the TCP TP.
Two different animals....GMcG wrote: By the way in configuration does the TCP mod bus have anything to do with any of the setup?
In MSM, "TCP" is short for "Tool change Position"
In computer networks, TCP = Transmission Contol Protocol"
Just an overload of the abbreviations.
Dave
Productivity Software for Personal CNC Machinists
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
I have the TCP TP installed , Max Dist DRO set to 10.00.
I have the TCP TP installed , Max Dist DRO set to 10.00.
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
Productivity Software for Personal CNC Machinists
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
http://www.CalypsoVentures.com
Re: Setting up TCP TP with Timing input problem
Dave
From the happy faces you posted I think you thought from my last reply that I had fixed the problem. That isn't the case. I was referring to the fact that I have had the max distance set to 10 inches all along.
I think with all the trouble I am having I will be satisfied with not using the touch plate to measure tool height on the machine. I have mostly RH tooling and can measure everything off the machine with height indicator. I use probe as master tool and set my TLOs accordingly against the MT.
Would have liked to get the TP working but such is not to be.
Thanks for your help though.
Greg
From the happy faces you posted I think you thought from my last reply that I had fixed the problem. That isn't the case. I was referring to the fact that I have had the max distance set to 10 inches all along.
I think with all the trouble I am having I will be satisfied with not using the touch plate to measure tool height on the machine. I have mostly RH tooling and can measure everything off the machine with height indicator. I use probe as master tool and set my TLOs accordingly against the MT.
Would have liked to get the TP working but such is not to be.
Thanks for your help though.
Greg