Likely noob problem related to TP Set Z0

[christopera]

Hello!

As the title says, I'm new to this all. That said, I've really tried to do my due diligence and not have to make a post. That said, I'm frustrated with a problem that has landed me in trouble a few times now.

So here is my issue. I have MTM setup. I have my Master Tool setup. I have TC Pos'n setup. And I have successfully logged new tools into my tool table via M6 T#, Measure Tool, save Mach TT (that's literally my button presses, if this is wrong let me know). I have also set my Tool Library and T# in Fusion360 to match the tool table in Mach/MSM (might also be an issue, I see that MSM and Mach handle TT differently but am not sure exactly how this changes my processing of tools).

So after this I believe that I am ready to set my Z0 to my WC. To do this I manually run my MT down to my TP until the LED is activated in the WC Offset screen, I back off using step until the LED turns off and then retouch the MT to the TP with Step mode until the LED relights. At this point I click the Set Z Zero button. Assuming my TP height is correct (settings page) and PTL is correct (as set when doing TCP TP MCz) I should then have measured the Z0. Twice this method has crashed a tool into the mill table and made quick work of the table before I could hit E-Stop. 200IPM and 6000RPM can really cut!

So I figured I was doing something wrong and went ahead and set Z0 the old fasion way via the Z0 button on the run page. I used the tool I was using to make all the cuts (no the MT), no tool change required. It worked! Yay, but I'd rather use the touch plate method. And I beleive that using a TP and the MT I will have no issues with multiple tools, but I'm clearly missing something.

So I investigated further. Finally I realized that when I press Set Z Sero on the WC offset page that it never displays that MSM has set Z0 in the display at the top of the screen. Then if I go to the run page, Z is not zerod, rather it remains at the offset from machine Coords. Seems like a smoking gun, but I don't have the slightest clue where I've gone wrong.

Given all this, it's my belief that I am almost certainly overlooking a setting or even a step in the setup process that is not allowing to set Z0 via the TP. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Best Regards,
Chris

[DaveCVI]

Hello!

As the title says, I'm new to this all. That said, I've really tried to do my due diligence and not have to make a post. That said, I'm frustrated with a problem that has landed me in trouble a few times now.

No problem, asking questions is why the forum is here.

So here is my issue. I have MTM setup. I have my Master Tool setup. I have TC Pos'n setup. And I have successfully logged new tools into my tool table via M6 T#, Measure Tool, save Mach TT (that's literally my button presses, if this is wrong let me know). I have also set my Tool Library and T# in Fusion360 to match the tool table in Mach/MSM (might also be an issue, I see that MSM and Mach handle TT differently but am not sure exactly how this changes my processing of tools).

MSM has to save some some additional info that is not present in the non-MSM mach tool table. However, this should not matter for the topic at hand.

Since you said that you set the Mach tool table to match Fusion360, it leads me to check: does this also mean that the mach tool table was set up to have all the correct TLO values for each tool?
I ask as sometimes people assume that because a CAM program has tool length info that this is magically transferred into mach as part of the post processing process. Even with the tool numbers "matched", the info for each tool in the mach tool table has to be set up (Diameter and TLO).

It sounds like you are measuring the tools by using the "measure tool" button. When you are measuring the tools, is the "Master T Mode" on? I have seen people measure tools in one mode, then use a different mode when running the program - which will cause a crash as the TLO values for each tool have to be measured and used in the same mode (MTM or not MTM).

Please also gp to the tool table info panel and check the values for the master tool number. In particular I would like to know what the PTL and the TLO values are. Two easy ways to get that info:
a) click the edit button for the MT number
b) click the report button and read the info from the tool table report.

So after this I believe that I am ready to set my Z0 to my WC. To do this I manually run my MT down to my TP until the LED is activated in the WC Offset screen, I back off using step until the LED turns off and then retouch the MT to the TP with Step mode until the LED relights. At this point I click the Set Z Zero button. Assuming my TP height is correct (settings page) and PTL is correct (as set when doing TCP TP MCz) I should then have measured the Z0. Twice this method has crashed a tool into the mill table and made quick work of the table before I could hit E-Stop. 200IPM and 6000RPM can really cut!

This is why I wan to know both the PT and the TLO for the Mater tool. The PT has to be correct because it is used to calculate the TLO value for tools. However, it is the TLO value (not the PT) that mach uses when converting from machine coords to work coords. This is a common area for confusion since people tend to be sloppy about terminology and say "tool length" when they really mean "tool length offset" value.

Another common issue is that people set a TLO value but never tell mach to use that value. When you mount a tool (M6 T#), are you then turning on TLO use (G43)? IS the TLO active LED on or off when setting Z0?
How about the Gcode.... does the gcode turn on TLO when running? Look for a tool change in the gcode (T# M6) and then the next line should be G43 H#.

It sounds to me like you have set up both a TCP TP (for measuring tools as part of a tool change) and a mobile TP (for setting Z 0 etc) - Do I have that correct? or do you only have the mobile TP?

So I figured I was doing something wrong and went ahead and set Z0 the old fasion way via the Z0 button on the run page. I used the tool I was using to make all the cuts (no the MT), no tool change required. It worked! Yay, but I'd rather use the touch plate method. And I beleive that using a TP and the MT I will have no issues with multiple tools, but I'm clearly missing something.

So I investigated further. Finally I realized that when I press Set Z Sero on the WC offset page that it never displays that MSM has set Z0 in the display at the top of the screen. Then if I go to the run page, Z is not zerod, rather it remains at the offset from machine Coords. Seems like a smoking gun, but I don't have the slightest clue where I've gone wrong.

I'd go test this to double check that all is working, but I'm writing this away from the shop. Let's get the info above and work from that for the first steps.

Given all this, it's my belief that I am almost certainly overlooking a setting or even a step in the setup process that is not allowing to set Z0 via the TP. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Best Regards,
Chris

[christopera]

Since you said that you set the Mach tool table to match Fusion360, it leads me to check: does this also mean that the mach tool table was set up to have all the correct TLO values for each tool?

No, in fact I never setup TLO in either Mach or Fusion. I anticipated the purchase of MSM so I never modified the tool table. That said, I did use the correct tool diameters in CAM in correspondence with my MSM Tool table numbers.

It sounds like you are measuring the tools by using the "measure tool" button. When you are measuring the tools, is the "Master T Mode" on? I have seen people measure tools in one mode, then use a different mode when running the program - which will cause a crash as the TLO values for each tool have to be measured and used in the same mode (MTM or not MTM).

I turned MTM on, and pretty much leave it on. No intentions of working otherwise in the immediate future.

Please also gp to the tool table info panel and check the values for the master tool number. In particular I would like to know what the PTL and the TLO values are. Two easy ways to get that info:
a) click the edit button for the MT number
b) click the report button and read the info from the tool table report.

I'll do this when I get home this evening.

This is why I wan to know both the PT and the TLO for the Mater tool. The PT has to be correct because it is used to calculate the TLO value for tools. However, it is the TLO value (not the PT) that mach uses when converting from machine coords to work coords. This is a common area for confusion since people tend to be sloppy about terminology and say "tool length" when they really mean "tool length offset" value.

Honestly I'm still a little confused by this. When I setup my MT it asked me for the PTL, I entered 2.5" as that is how far below the spindle the tool extends when the spindle is at the TCP.

Another common issue is that people set a TLO value but never tell mach to use that value. When you mount a tool (M6 T#), are you then turning on TLO use (G43)? IS the TLO active LED on or off when setting Z0?
How about the Gcode.... does the gcode turn on TLO when running? Look for a tool change in the gcode (T# M6) and then the next line should be G43 H#.

I have pasted a snippet of G-code below. I see that it's calling a height off set of 3. Not sure how this effects the tool table to TLO though.


(POCKET3)
M5
M9
T3 M6
S6000 M3
G54
M8
G0 X3.9678 Y-1.835
G43 Z0.6 H3
Z0.0794
G1 Z0.067 F30.

It sounds to me like you have set up both a TCP TP (for measuring tools as part of a tool change) and a mobile TP (for setting Z 0 etc) - Do I have that correct? or do you only have the mobile TP?

I am using the same touch plate (actually a Wildhorse Probe in touch plate config) as both a mobile TP as a TCP TP. It's indexed so I can repeatably move it to the tool change position. Currently, all of the tool changes I perform from the set Tool Change Position. The Go TC Pos'n button is used religously. I also am careful to reference the machine at startup every time.

The thing that baffles me the most here is the Set Z Zero button resulting in no effect and warning or confirmations in the display line. Perhaps a reinstall would be worthwhile? I tried it again last evening. Clicking on the Set Z Zero button results in no change, but it should set the WC

[christopera]

Here's my tool table.

MachStdMill Tool Table Report Created: 9/8/2016 9:08:06 PM

Tool: 1
Description: 2.5" Face Mill
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = 0.000000
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 2.500000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 2.831888 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

Tool: 2
Description: 5mm 2 Flute Carbide
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = -0.002554
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 0.000000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 2.829334 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

Tool: 3
Description: 1/4" 2 Flute Carbide
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = -0.736384
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 0.000000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 2.095505 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

Tool: 4
Description: 3/8" 2 Flute Carbide End Mill
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = -0.126841
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 0.000000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 2.705048 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

Tool: 5
Description: 1/2" Roughing End Mill HSS
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = 0.709183
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 0.000000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 3.225183 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

Tool: 6
Description: 5/8" Ball End 2 Flute HSS
Holder Type: RH = Repeatable Length Tool Holder.

TL Offset = 1.595595
Wear Length = 0.000000 (TLO & TLOWear values in Setup units = Inches)

Diameter = 0.000000
Wear Diameter = 0.000000 (Diam & DiamWear values In Tool Units = Inches)

PTL = 4.111595 (@ last TCP measurement; PTL Values in Setup units = Inches)
_______________

[DaveCVI]

Hi,
What tool # is your master tool?


In the code you posted is this line:
G43 Z0 H3

If I'd have written that by hand I would have done it in two lines just to make it clearer, but the single line does the same thing:
G43 H3 - this is the gcode to turn on TLO compensation, the H3 is an "argument" to G43 - it says to use the TLO value from row 3 of the tool table for the current tool # (3 in this case).
Now that TLO is on, the machine will move the current tool tip to a WC position of Z0 (assuming the TLO value in the tool table is actually correct for tool #3).

You can sanity check the TLO value by doing this via MDI:
T3 M6 - mount tool 3
G43 H3 - apply the TLO value for T3
G01 F10 Z1.0 - move the tip of T3 to a point 1: above WC Z0.... I used a slow feed rate to give time to react "just in case"

When the tool stops, is it 1" above the Z0 surface?

Also, remember that anytime the length of the master tool changes, ALL other tools have to be remeasured before they are used.
(as in MTM The TLO valeu is the difference in PLT between the master PTL and the tool PTL).

Dave

[christopera]

Master tool is T1.

I have been mindful of the the need to reset the TLO values after any MT change, even a change in the TP (which I have been calibrating over time).

As far as my issues, I think I'm very close to resolving them. Last night I went through your sanity test, neither I nor my machine passed, I used Z2 and rather than going to the correct Z position T3 lowered to around .5" off the table. This to me indicates error in setup, primarily that of the PTL that I specified. Before I did the sanity test I rebuilt the tool library completely and ran the initial set MCz0 operation at the start as well. I used 2.5" as my PTL.

I notice that the tool table report has the PTL of the T1 at 2.813888". The PTL as I measure it is actually 2.5", I assume MSM generates a value for this, though I'm not sure I understand why this is the case.

[DaveCVI]

What are you using as the reference line for tool physical length?

When MSM is calibrated to measure using a TCP TP, you have to give MSM the PTL of the tool being used to calibrate the TCP TP MCz level. The usual way to to that is to tell MSM a 0 PTL and let the spindle touch the plate, that process locates the TCP TP in MCz.

MSM measures PTL (as that is the physical measurement) then it calculates TLO value as the difference in the master PTL and the PTL of the tool being measured.

If you have an offset in the PTL value of the Master tool due to an error in the MCz of the TCP TP, that difference will make the PTL measurements wrong and the error will in turn propagate to all the other TLO values.

Dave

[christopera]

I measure from the bottom of the spindle as my reference line. I am going to move my lower Z limit switch and that will let me touch my spindle to the TP and use 0 PTL while locating TCP TP MCz.

[christopera]

Hi Dave,

A little follow up. I replaced my Z axis limit/homing switch totally, moving away from a mechanical switch to a proximity switch. I never felt motivated enough to chase the repeatability of the mechanical switch, it may have been good, it may have been terrible. The new one is excellent though, and that's what matters.

Second off, I have played with the system a fair amount. And I am much closer now than I was before, but issues still persist. One of which is that I get unpredictable results with the RH and NRH radio button selection. For example, I thought I was measuring TLO incorrectly (more on that in a second), so I changed one of my tools that was in a RH to a NRH. This as expected activated TLO measurement via TP at each tool change. However, when I change the setting back to RH it continues to auto measure the TLO for that tool at each TC (despite being a RH). Skip RH Tools was not On or lit, but in the past MSM skipped RH tools despite this option being off. Should it not measure all tools, RH and NRH if the Skip RH Tools button is off and not lit? As for measuring TLO, there are apparently two ways to do this? Though I am unsure of the varying merits of either. It seems I can use the Set TP TLO button or the Measure Tool button, both of which probe in Z axis and return a TLO. Does it matter which I use when I am entering tools into my library?

Finally, I am still getting incorrect TLO offsets, though the issue seems consistent for all tools. If I set Z Zero from WC Offset, as you describe in your video using a mobile TP (the same one i use for TLO), then enter G43 H3 G01 F10 Z1, the TLO Active LED lights, the tool then moves to actual Z.75. That's consistent for all tools, including the mastertool. At on point I decided that I must have by Z steps/unit wrong (doesn't really fit for the problem, but I was grasping at straws), I measured it over 6 inches and got 5.9995". Good enough for me. Additionally I tried changing the PTL of the MasterTool to compensate for the consistent .25" error (not a permanent solution so much as an experiment), this had no effect despite resetting Z0 and relogging TLO for a second test tool into the library. I still get the consistent .25" error. I measured my TP, the height of it is correctly logged into MSM. I rechecked my MT PTL, I get consistently within .0002" on that, well within my backlash I would presume. And just to be informative, currently I am setting all of these values off the table itself. No parts or pieces are being used.

All of that said, I also recently have had a bout where the Cyc Incr button has stopped working and the Cont and Step buttons don't light. Restarting the software generates no change. So I'm considering reinstalling the software and starting fresh. Potentially I botched the setup somewhere along the line and starting fresh will get me back on track. I feel like I am can operate the software at this point, but why the issues persist is beyond me.

- Chris

[DaveCVI]

Chris, FYI, I'm in Europe this week and probably can't reply in detail until next week.
Dave


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